Sarah Turner  00:00

We're looking at how light interacts with our microbiome. And you know, the microbiome is such an interesting and cool topic when you think actually, we're we're more bacterial cells than human cells.

 

Dr. Ayla Wolf  00:13

Welcome to Life after impact the concussion recovery Podcast. I'm Dr Ayla Wolf, and I'll be hosting today's episode where we help you navigate the often confusing, frustrating and overwhelming journey of concussion and brain injury recovery. This podcast is your go to resource for actionable information, whether you're dealing with a recent concussion, struggling with post concussion syndrome, or just feeling stuck in your healing process in each episode, we dive deep into the symptoms, testing treatments and neurological insights that can help you move forward with clarity and confidence. We bring you leading experts in the world of brain health, functional neurology and rehabilitation to share their wisdom and strategies. So if you're feeling lost, hopeless or like no one understands what you're going through. Know that you are not alone. This podcast can be your guide and partner in recovery, helping you build a better life after impact.

 

Dr. Ayla Wolf  01:14

Sarah Turner, welcome to life after impact. It's so great to see you again and to be able to catch up.

 

Sarah Turner  01:20

Thank you. Yeah, it's lovely to be here. Thank you.

 

Dr. Ayla Wolf  01:23

Yeah, a lot has happened since I talked to you quite a quite a while ago. You have your own podcast, the Rebel Scientist. You started a company called CereThrive, which has a really unique red light therapy device that targets the gut, brain axis. And so I'm really excited to learn more about your journey with creating that device, and I know you're involved in a lot of red light therapy research, so why don't you start out by giving us a little bit about your scientific background, and then what got you into this whole field?

 

Sarah Turner  01:55

Thank you. Yes, I had a bit of a random walk into this, this kind of field, if you like, because I started out really in fairly orthodox science. I started off in pharmaceuticals, mainly working for GSK, and at the time I was looking at drug delivery devices. So still in the devices, but at the time I was looking at, how do you deliver drugs to people, most notably asthma drugs. And it was during that time that I did a lot of experiments with the company about

 

Sarah Turner  02:30

what you need to do in order to get good drug deposition into the body. Of course, I was using a fake lung. You know, I was kind of on the benches. I wasn't in clinical but things like grounding have a big effect. So whether you're kind of grounded while you're delivering these drugs to people, has a massive effect on deposition, certainly, as shown in one of these kind of simulated lungs. And really, what that led me to conclude is really it's about the state of the person, not so much you know the the intervention that you're trying to do. And actually, I left the drug industry shortly after that, because I began to see that really, it's, it's about how we look after the individual, you know, your environment, the state of your own health, more than kind of trying to administer a drug that has potential side effects long term. So I kind of stepped out of pharmaceutical and I went into nutrition, because I thought, okay, maybe we can prime the body with nutrition, but that doesn't really go far enough. I ended up doing a master's in clinical neuroscience, and then I started to look very closely at light and how light interacts with biology. And the interesting thing was, in all of the qualifications, in all the education and in all that industrial experience, nobody had ever told me about how light interacts with biology. And it seems like it's a science which is only now beginning to kind of gather some traction, although really it has a very old history. You know, Nas Vinson won the Nobel Prize from it, you know, a couple of 100 years ago. So we're just now beginning to see the fruits of all the research into photobiomodulation. So because I have clinical neuroscience, that's why I'm applying it to the brain. But of course, light therapies used in a lot of different applications.

 

Dr. Ayla Wolf  04:24

Yeah, one of my favorite research papers that really talks about the gut brain axis defines it as the gut microbiota. Gut brain axis, because obviously, when we're interacting with the gut, we're also interacting with trillions of bacteria and other life forms that are in our gut and making things happen, as far as digesting our food and turning that into neurotransmitters. And so have you also kind of specifically studied what's happening when we shine light on all these gut microbes?

 

Sarah Turner  04:56

Yeah, that is a fascinating topic. And I think. Again, it's going to become a new science. Already, there's been a paper published, which you'll love, if you like this topic, called photobiomics, and it was coined by Dr Ann Lieber and her team in Australia. But that that's doing exactly that we're looking at how light interacts with our microbiome. And you know, the microbiome is such an interesting and cool topic. When you think, actually, we're, we're more bacterial cells than human cells, you know, we really are a community of species. We kind of walk around like, you know, thinking that we're kind of this, you know, I'm Sarah, you know, actually we are a colony of bacteria, viruses, microbes, you know, all kinds of things. So taking care of that part of our being is hugely important. Perhaps we'll talk a little bit about how red light therapy works, but it mainly works by targeting the mitochondria, which are tiny organelles inside our cells. These are very similar, actually, to bacteria, and in fact, probably from an ancestral point of view. You know, these mitochondria, or how we make energy in our body, is probably a symbiotic relationship. You know, many, you know, millions of years ago when we had multicellular organisms. So it should be no surprise to us that bacteria are responding to light, that we can target our bacteria with light and that we have this effect. So you're totally right how having this microbiome, gut brain axis is hugely important. It's, it's, again, it's one of these topics that's gaining traction, and I'm interested to see how red light therapy in particular, can target both our human cells and our bacterial cells to have that beneficial effect.

 

Dr. Ayla Wolf  06:44

Yeah, yeah. Fascinating. When we shine red light. There's lot of devices on the market. Yours has very specific wavelengths. Do you want to talk, I mean, a little bit, not get too sciencey or technical, but do you want to talk a little bit about the difference between red light near infrared, the different wavelengths, and why that's important?

 

Sarah Turner  07:03

Yeah, I'll kind of keep it top level, because I think the thing that most people need to understand is this kind of wavelength of light, and when we say wavelength, we're referring to the color. The color defines the wavelength. So red light has a specific wavelength range, and then near infrared light. It's just a little bit longer range. It's outside of our visible spectrum, so we call it infrared but we're talking about, if you think about the rainbow of colors, we're talking about the longer wavelengths of light. And because of the angle of the sun, at different times of day, we see a lot of this red light at sunrise and sunset. That's why we get these fabulous, you know, beautiful, orangey, ready, pink sunrises and sunsets, because, because of the way the sun is angled at that time of day, that's when we get this light, and our bodies are very in tune with this light. Because really, up until 200 years ago, as humans, we would be outside most of the day. You know, most of our evolutionary history would be living actually outside. You know, we only have relatively recently lived this indoor lifestyle. So our bodies are very much designed to do certain things at different times of day, and when we see that red light, the red and near infrared sunrise, it sets off a whole cascade of reactions in our bodies. It also kind of prepares us for the day, and then in the evening, it prepares us for sleep and regeneration. So as a species now, we're very deficient in this longer wavelength light, the light we would see at sunrise and sun, so it is present at the rest of the time, but that's when we would kind of see the most of it in comparison to the other wavelengths. So I think, you know, for people who don't want to get too much into the science, what we really need to know is we are animals that have really evolved outside. We really do need to see that red light, which we see at sunrise and sunset. If we don't, and almost all of us don't, now, we become deficient. It's almost like a vitamin deficiency, you know, if you're deficient in it, you need to put it back. And so really, that's what this red light technology is doing. It's not doing anything alien to the body. It's just putting back those wavelengths of light that we've kind of removed from our lives by living in houses and having blue screens and doing all the things that we do now.

 

Dr. Ayla Wolf  09:19

Yeah, I love that. You just boil it down to that level of simplicity.

 

Sarah Turner  09:24

Yes, because you can't, you know, there's so much to the science. But really, if we kind of thinking about, why would red light have this effect, that's why, you know, we are still, although we're very sophisticated in our technology at the moment, you know, this kind of time, this era of civilization, we're still living very basic bodies. You know, our bodies are still those bodies that you know, have evolved 200,000 years ago. We still have the same light receptors. We still have the same little organelles producing energy. So we really need to think about how we can nurture that part of our evolutionary. Selves. If we can't be outside all the time, we need to find a way to replace that light that we're just not seeing.

 

Dr. Ayla Wolf  10:08

Yeah, absolutely. And what makes your device that you created unique is that it has both a kind of transcranial component, a headband that you wear in addition to a panel that you place on your abdomen to actually get red light to both places. So I love that. So talk a little bit about kind of the interface of your device and how that works.

 

Sarah Turner  10:31

Yeah, maybe I'll demo it. I don't know if you do video, yeah, yeah, but I can talk you through it, because sometimes, you know, people see my device and they think it's like a visor. It looks a bit like Star Trek, you know, where you have the device over your eyes. But actually it's very simple. So what I'm showing you now is the headband, and it just has clusters, and you can see the red there, and in between, you know, those dots. That's near infrared, so it's just as bright. It's just not visible to the human eye. So the main reason I've put red in there is one because we want to get superficial. You know, most of these masks that people are used to for collagen in the skin, they're red because it's superficial, but you're still getting through the skin, and then the near infrared will actually go straight through the skull and onto the surface of the brain. That kind of trips some people out. So there, you just push it here against the forehead. So that's the frontal cortex. A lot of projections end in that area, and there's no hair there as a barrier. So you can go straight through onto that area and then the body panel. Very, very simple. You know, we don't need to kind of have really complicated tech. This is just red, and you can see the near infrared. And this you can just place over the abdomen, because, actually, the abdomen is a really good site for getting light into the body. You know, there's less barriers. You haven't got to go through bone. It will go straight through, you know, five centimeters deep in some people, that will go straight through the gut. In other people, depending on kind of visceral fat and things like that. It might just penetrate that but you create by healing the gut, you create a better environment for the good bacteria. So whether or not you're directly getting to those bacteria, or whether you're just creating that environment by sealing tight junctions in the gut. For me, getting to the gut first is an intrinsic part of having a good brain. It's very difficult to have a good brain if your guts out of whack, or if you've got metabolites leaking into your body and inflammation communication via the vagus nerve. Really, to have a good brain, we really want to heal that gut first.

 

Dr. Ayla Wolf  12:37

Love it. Yeah. And then do you run that through a phone app. Is that how it works?

 

Sarah Turner  12:45

Yes, I use an app, um, and the reason I use an app is because, as well as putting the light onto the surface of the brain, we can also pulse the light to different brainwave frequencies. So people may have heard of things like alpha and gamma brainwave frequencies, because the brain is oscillating, and we can detect that on the surface of the brain, and so we give those those numbers. So for example, we're attending to each other right now. We're engaged in this lovely conversation, so we're probably in a fairly consistent gamma phase, which means our brains are oscillating around about 40 times a second, because that's the attentive phase. Some people find it difficult to get into these phases, maybe because of injury or disease or just being tired or whatever. So we can almost show the brain that 40 hertz frequency by turning that light source off and on 40 times a second, and then the brain responds by kind of upping its frequency, so we can go up or down. I have six different programs that enable you to get into different brainwave states, so I do use an app for that. But then on top of the device, I have a Bluetooth disable. So for people who don't want to have Bluetooth on their head, and it's not a great idea, you know, you don't really want to have those things in your ears either. It's best to turn any kind of Bluetooth off, so you can set the program on your phone, get the device going, turn the Bluetooth off, and then you have a program that's more bespoke to what you're trying to do that day.

 

Dr. Ayla Wolf  14:21

Awesome. You've thought of everything.

 

Sarah Turner  14:24

Do you know that the dev team are like, why would they all kind of got their ear pods in? Why would you ever want to turn Bluetooth on? And I'm like, Well, you know, some people are very sensitive, and it is a good idea. I mean, I know in the daytime, we're kind of all sitting in the Wi Fi and you know, if you living in a tower block. You know, it's something you can't really avoid, but I think you know little things to reduce it as much as possible. If you're not using your phone, have it on airplane, turn the Wi Fi off at night. We can do little things to try and limit the exposure of these kind of frequencies that perhaps are not so healthy.

 

Dr. Ayla Wolf  14:59

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I definitely turn my phone into airplane mode every night before I go to bed.

 

Sarah Turner  15:06

Yes, yeah. I think it's a wise thing to do. And so, I mean, you don't want to get phone calls waking you up anyway, and it's just a simple thing to do. And let's say, some of these technologies, it's just about okay, how can I just a little bit turn down some of these exposures that I'm getting, and, you know, I don't think we need to get too caught up with it, because it is the world we live in. But little things, let's just try and reduce that exposure. It's like your diet, isn't it? Try not to eat processed food, you know, just try to cut down all the junk as much as you can.

 

Dr. Ayla Wolf  15:36

Right? The 80/20 rule, or maybe the 90/10 rule for trying to get a little more discipline.

 

Sarah Turner  15:42

That's right, yeah, yeah, excellent.

 

Dr. Ayla Wolf  15:45

How long has this device been on the market? And have you heard a lot of feedback from people like, what has the feedback been

 

Sarah Turner  15:53

so the device has been on the market now. We've just had our two year birthday last weekend.

 

Dr. Ayla Wolf  15:58

Oh, happy birthday.

 

Sarah Turner  15:59

The company's been going a little bit longer, because actually, there was a lot of product development went into the device. So we had it. We had a whole year of product development before we actually went into producing the device. But we've had some excellent feedback. We've had feedback from people with all kinds of conditions that have gone from wherever they're at to improved. So we now have a group of people with ALS. We have a group of people with young onset Parkinson's. And I do need to make the caveat that I'm not saying that we're in any way curing, treating, diagnosing or preventing any of these diseases, but just people have seen, they've gone from a baseline of where they're at to better So, better sleep, better movement, better memory, you know, enhanced relationships, being able to be resilient and deal with stressful situations. So we, we do have quite a lot of groups now for for different things, where people have really started to see the effect. I think healthy people also, you know, that's another interesting thing. Healthy People also seem like more of a cognitive enhancement effect. And also, I was very amazed to hear how many people had low level gut issues that didn't even realize. Because a lot of people will come to me and say, oh, did I tell you that I had kind of, you know, bloating and all of that, and I don't get it anymore. And I was like, Well, you didn't mention it. And they're like, Well, I just thought it was something I lived with. You know, I think we're at this crazy place at the moment where people are just living with all kinds of gut issues because it seems normal. Everybody's got it. So it's something, you know, people are very focused on what's going on with their brain. But a lot of the times, the the gut is kind of the first, the first indicator that something wrong. So any kind of gut issues, I think, should be nipped in the bud. And it's not normal to kind of have these things, you know, is something that is you can do something about very easily.

 

Dr. Ayla Wolf  17:57

Yeah, I would agree. I see a lot of gut dysfunction as well, and usually it's not. It's not people's main complaint. It might not even be the top five main complaints that they walk in with, but it's so often part of the clinical presentation that that people are suffering from different gut issues. And like you said, many of them do just kind of live with it and think that this is normal and this is just part of my life, and don't necessarily realize there there are things that can be done. And so I love that your device, it works on both ends, the gut and the brain. And I've been listening to some interesting information on the use of bitters too, and just how important all the different bitters are in our diet, and how many of them are removed because many people don't like the bitter flavor of things. And so hundreds of years ago, even our grains had more of a bitter taste to them, and we've since kind of like genetically modified that out. And so even with like what we're eating every day, we're not getting those bitters that stimulate digestion before we even put food in our mouth, or as soon as we do so, it's like we have to approach this gut issue from so many different angles, you know, from making sure the brain is healthy, making sure we have bitters in our diet, getting red light in our bodies, all the things,

 

Sarah Turner  19:16

all the things. And you're right. It's just, I think we've moved towards this kind of comfort. You know, we've kind of moved towards a very comfortable lifestyle. And things, you know, extreme cold, well, not even extreme, but just uncomfortable. Cold, uncomfortable heat, like you say, bit, you know, all of these things are things that are like a home hormetic stress, you know, a little bit of hormesis, a little bit of stress on the body, is good, because the body bounces back from that. And I think, you know, if we kind of coast along too in too comfortable a lane, there's absolutely no pressure on the body to to develop any kind of resistance. And it's all very well and good until something happens, and then you haven't got the resistance to deal with it. So I. I agree with you. I think trying to bring in some of these things which are maybe a little bit uncomfortable, you know, I do hot yoga. I know I've got friends who do kind of the cold showers, you know, that's really what we need to do to kind of give our body that, that robustness, that we need

 

Dr. Ayla Wolf  20:18

exactly, I mean, where I live, it gets pretty cold in the wintertime. And so for me, as fall sinks in, I usually try to sleep with my window open, and actually get my body used to sleeping in much colder temperatures, so that when it then is below freezing, you know, my hypothalamus has kind of had a chance to be like, Okay, I've been, you know, worked into this. It wasn't just that I went from a 70 degree temperature controlled House to now it's negative 10 outside and so, right, yeah, for me, I even, I don't love cold plunges, but I do definitely get a lot of cold exposure, just by nature of where I live, and kind of trying to get that cold air into my bedroom at nighttime as long as possible before it gets a little, you know, I don't want my house to be 30 degrees when I wake up.

 

Sarah Turner  21:04

But, yeah, no, I get it. And there's very easy ways to do some of these things, like, you know, the, you know, you see these extreme biohackers sitting in these tubs of ice and things, but you're right, just having an open window, or, kind of, you know, on a frosty morning in England, standing outside without your shoes and socks on just for 10 minutes. You know, it's not something that has to be, you know. You know, you have to totally brave it out or buy, like a, you know, 12 grand I've no you just have to kind of put your body in these uncomfortable things or, or just be sensible. You like, light is so important. Could you put your desk next to a window? Could you open the window? Could you do some of your meetings outside? You know, I think some of these things are much easier than people think.

 

Dr. Ayla Wolf  21:47

Yeah, yeah. I know. The recommendation is to try to get outside first thing in the morning for that morning sunlight. And luckily for me, I have a dog that wants to go outside first thing when I wake up, so I can go and I can throw the ball to him first thing in the morning and get my morning sunlight. So he's kind of my, I don't know. I probably wouldn't just go outside and walk and just stand there for 15 minutes and do nothing. I like to be doing things all the time. So he, he's my excuse for my morning sunlight.

 

Sarah Turner  22:16

Yeah, whatever works for you. I like to sometimes just go and stand there and kind of just try and see that sun coming up, or if I'm in a place where I need to walk to the sunrise, all the better, but it is so crucial, and it is a simple thing, and if you miss out, you really are like trying to get through the day with one hand tied behind your back because your body hasn't done the things that it needs to do. I mean, people talk about melatonin as the hormone of darkness, but you actually make it in the morning in response to seeing that morning sun. You know, cortisol levels, female hormones, male hormones, all these things are set, even how your skin is sulfated to deal with UV light in the middle of the day. You know, people just really, maybe don't prioritize that. I mean, that's what you know, red light devices are great for putting it back. So, so I always say number one, get outside as much as you can see the sunrise. Number two, have a backup plan. Have your red light therapy device, because if you've missed it, or, you know, you you're rushing around, you can very easily put that back, but if you consistently miss it, then, then, you know, you're running your body without doing the things that the body needs to do to really, you know, be ready for the day. You know, it's kind of like never, ever servicing your car, just running and running and running it. You know, things are going to wear out.

 

Dr. Ayla Wolf  23:37

Yeah, so I have a question, obviously, where I live, it's dark, you know, we don't get the sun very high in the sky from September to May. And so many people do suffer from seasonal affective disorder. And I think a lot of people don't even recognize that they're suffering from seasonal affective disorder. They just are feeling more tired, more lethargic, a little maybe not like full on depression, but a little more down, not quite as motivated to go out and do things when it's dark by 5pm and so usually, you know, when I was growing up, I always would see that people would have these Sun boxes with certain wavelengths of light. But are you also seeing or do you find that the red wavelengths of light are also therapeutic for kind of offsetting that seasonal affective disorder that people deal with in the winter?

 

Sarah Turner  24:25

Yeah, I mean, seasonal affective disorder is usually because people are missing out on all the wavelengths of light, because the light contains such a broad spectrum of the frequencies. So a lot of the light boxes that you mentioned are broad spectrum. They're not just the red and the near infrared, because although we talk a lot about blue light toxicity, you know, you need a certain amount for dopamine levels at the right times of day, you know. So if you're if you're in a very dark place, you know you're not getting exposed to any of the wavelengths, but certainly the near the red and. Near Infrared light the that seems to activate the body's healing mechanisms, probably because that's when we see it, sunrise and sunset. So you're setting your healing mechanisms up, you know, to prepare yourself for any injuries you might get in the day. And then at evening, you're kind of doing all kinds of things to heal the body as you sleep. So things, things like, you know, anxiety and depression and mood are very closely linked to that. So we do find, for a lot of people, it is a mood lifter, red light therapy. I mean, let's say, if you really have full on seasonal effective and you're because you're in a very dark environment, I would recommend one of the full spectrum ones as well. Actually, you know, get both. Sure. I have a lovely friend called Guti, who's got a company called miter Lux, and he makes one that actually puts out the UV as well. So you can your body can produce vitamin D, because that's something that you don't do in these kind of very northern places. But right from a perspective of of improving mood, certainly these red light therapy devices have shown consistently to elevate mood. So if, if you're kind of, you know, you're able to get outside, but you're still feeling a little bit down, I would say to try the red light, because the red light will charge your mitochondria give your body a lot more energy too. Sometimes, you know, what we're feeling is just a depletion of energy, just as simple as that. So if your mitochondria can produce more energy in the form of ATP, which is this molecule that the body uses for energy, then I think everything works better. You know, everything works better. Your mood's better, you're elevated. You can heal better. So, yeah, it is a slightly different topic. Having full on seasonal effective then you need the broad spectrum, but, yeah, red light therapy will definitely help with mood. Yeah, still helps with that mood lift.

 

Dr. Ayla Wolf  26:46

 Awesome. Yes, yes. And are you involved in any current clinical trials or studies, or if there, if there was a study you could do, what would it look like?

 

Sarah Turner  26:57

So I have a couple underway with my actual device. So I have a study, actually in North Africa with autistic spectrum disorder, which is obviously a childhood developmental disorder, so looking at things like mood regulation, and that is based on some previous research that's already been done that's shown that red light therapy could potentially help with that. So we're supplying the devices for that study. Also, as I've mentioned, ALS and young onset Parkinson's, we're doing case documented case histories in association with Professor pushes Oh at Durham University. So it's not a clinical trial. We won't be able to publish any kind of clinical data, but we can publish documented case histories that have been properly reviewed with proper data collection. So we're kind of doing our little bit that we can do with the limited funds that we have for these trials. Because, as I'm sure you'll know, full on, clinical trials are a massive undertaking. I'm hoping that we will be able to raise some funds going forward to do these big clinical trials, but there are a lot of people who are currently doing that using very similar outputs and wavelengths to the one in sera thrive. So that's another cool thing that's going on, is we can keep an eye on what's happening and then prove equivalence to other devices too. Yeah, absolutely.

 

Dr. Ayla Wolf  28:18

Well, and I know you've mentioned Parkinson's and these neurodegenerative diseases. And it does seem like the future of neurodegenerative disease research really is on that intersection between mitochondrial health and inflammatory processes, and how do we actually improve the functioning and the health of the mitochondria, and what are the downstream effects of that in terms of, does that kind of mitigate inflammation and neuroinflammation? Yeah, for sure,

 

Sarah Turner  28:46

it's a very interesting field of study that's gaining a lot of traction right now. Let's say in the US, a lot of research is being conducted with the Veterans Association looking at things like, well, neurodegeneration, but also TBI and PTSD, and yes, even at Harvard, Professor Paolo Cassano is looking at psychiatric conditions. So we're kind of, I feel like we're almost on the crest of the wave where we're going to start to see some of those medical approvals. Then, of course, that will open the door for a lot of things to happen, because at the moment, we just need to build the clinical evidence to a point where it's accepted by the regulatory authorities. We're not quite there yet, but I can see it. I can see it happening very soon.

 

Dr. Ayla Wolf  29:31

Yeah, amazing. And then what kind of advice do you have for people who, I mean, I've had patients that have said to me, Oh, I went and I bought, like, a $40 red light device at the store down the street. So how, like, what would you say to people, in terms of, like, when they're looking for a device, what are the things that they need to be looking for so they're not wasting their money on things that are ineffective?

 

Sarah Turner  29:55

Yeah, this a very common question, because it's very difficult to know. Uh. That what you need. I think the first thing is, what? What is your goal? Because most of the devices are designed for a specific goal. So if your goal is muscular, for example, then you might want to either have, like the bed or the big panel, something that you can stand up against. If it's general wellness, again, those panels that go on the wall could be cool, but if it's something like brain, you really do need to have something that's pushed up against the head, and it's kind of a bit ergonomic, because light will only go in a straight line. So if you have something that's kind of flat and you see light bouncing off of you, well that should show you that it's not going in, because you can see it coming off you. You know, I see all these pictures of people glowing red saying, Oh, I'm getting my red light therapy. And I'm like, Well, I can see most of the light coming off. So you do need to have it contoured and round. It's best to have something that goes pushed up against the body, is my recommendation. So whatever you get, make sure you can curve it to the body and actually press it up against the body. The beds are good, but often you have to go to the clinic, and then you just need to be able to contact the manufacturer and ask them, you know, what is the power output? And again, this is where you have to rely a little bit on what the companies are saying, because there's no, there's no absolute criteria that it has to be a certain wattage output. But most of the companies will kind of give that information and then let you know why they've done that. So for example, my device is 25 milliwatts for a centimeter squared. It's 30 joules per centimeter squared. And if you look at all the research literature, it kind of sits somewhere between low to mid dose. And I do that deliberately, because I'm obviously targeting the brain and we don't want to overstimulate so I stay in the low to mid dose range. So most companies will kind of be able to tell you that, but if you buy something off Amazon or something like this, you've just really got no idea what you're getting. If it's really old school, you know, if you're buying something that's meant to go on the back of a car or something, you could be getting heavy metals off them, because LEDs are not all made in the same way. So you do have to be cautious. You know, you can't buy fairy lights or strip lights or something. You do need to have the LEDs that are made to a certain ISO standard if you're putting something on your head. You need to be especially cautious, because you don't want to overheat the head too. So you need to have LEDs where you've got some kind of heat sink so that you're not generating too much warmth. Yeah, and of course, any device that's been registered will have to meet those criteria. You know, anything that's been made in a factory where you are for human use, or you're doing it for a certain application, they have standards that they have to meet. So really, some of these devices can be expensive. You know, it can be anything from like 500 to like $3,000 but what price do you put on your health and if it's something you're going to use repeatedly, sometimes these things are worth the investment,

 

Dr. Ayla Wolf  33:01

right? And it makes more sense to buy the thing that's going to be effective versus buying a device that isn't as expensive. You used a couple times, you don't notice anything, and then you it ends up in the back of your shelf and never to be used again.

 

Sarah Turner  33:16

Never to be used again, yeah? And I think that's why we try to do, like webinars and trainings and support groups and things so that you can get, you know, one, it's community, which is great for people if they are struggling with something. But two, yeah, you want to know that it's working, and you want to know the right protocols, and you want to have the science, because the more you get into there, I don't know, I'm very passionate about it, but I find it so interesting that you start to want to know a bit more. So it's good to be able to have access to that information. So if you're just buying a device on Amazon, quite often people don't use it because you just don't know how to use it properly.

 

Dr. Ayla Wolf  33:52

Yeah, absolutely. That is all really good, solid advice for people. Thank you for that. You had mentioned something, and this might get a little technical, but I do know, kind of within the red light device world, there was some argument back and forth over whether the red light does actually penetrate the skull to reach brain tissue. And I think some of the argument was over. Well, the studies were done on cadavers, which then can't translate to a living human organism. So where have we officially ended up, at a place where we can say definitively Yes, red light does penetrate the skull. It reaches the brain at certain wavelengths and certain power outputs.

 

Sarah Turner  34:36

I think so. I think we've conclusively shown that. I mean, yes, you can do it with cadavers very easily, and you can kind of show it, but, I mean, you can even, you know, measure the output. You know, if you're putting a device up against your hand and measuring it on the other side, you know, there are devices where you can measure that. And of course, there's, we're going through bone there. But you can also do something called FNIRS, which is. Functional near infrared, where you can shine the light and then measure what's bouncing back and kind of see, you know, how far the light can go. So there's all kinds of things that we can do where we really do think that the light not very far. I'm not saying it's going deep into the brain, but, you know, at least three millimeters onto the surface of the cortex. You know, if you have the light source pushed up and you have the right wavelength, because you do need to have near infrared, the red light is not going to go through. But yeah, I think now we have enough data from all different kinds of modeling, actual physical experiments with cadavers, looking at how light bounces back, and calculating with the light that's coming back, we have enough information to conclusively say, yes, you can get through the skull. It's actually fairly transparent to these longer wavelength light. And also we can, you know, we can use something like qualitative EEG and show differences before and after. So something is definitely happening to the brain during that intervention, functional MRI. We also have that data to show you shine light onto the brain. The brain responds directly, instantaneously, so something is happening to cause that? Yeah, there is quite a lot of data now around that

 

Dr. Ayla Wolf  36:16

fabulous Yeah. And then tell me a little bit about the difference between led versus laser, because I know laser is the wavelength is cohesive. All the photons are moving together, and LED is scattered. And so some people were saying, you know, this is this is why laser is more superior. So where is the research on all of that argument?

 

Sarah Turner  36:41

Yeah, so yes, you're right. The initial use of light therapy was laser, because, really, we didn't have the technology until the mid 80s for making these LEDs that we could kind of use in a medical setting. So you're right. Laser is a coherent beam of light, so all of the light waves are going in in phase, in the same direction. So you can get a very clear point light source. LEDs are non coherent, so it's scattered. So we, like, I say, a lot of the data does show we do see an effect on the brain using LEDs. So something is happening. Also, if you can imagine scattered light, you have these interference patterns. Some people say that could even be better. You have a bigger surface area, and potentially you're covering more of the brain, whereas lasers tend to be pinpoint, I think, I think both work. My rationale for using LED is just that it's safer. I mean, because you have these coherent light beams, there is potential. You wouldn't want to get it in your eyes or something, so you have to be very careful. It's not something you would just want to have lying around the house if you had kids or something, you know, if you had it in in the eyes. So, LED is very, very safe compared to laser right? And potentially could be more effective, or at least as effective as laser therapy, and so that's why, you know, if you go it used to be low level laser therapy, or cold laser therapy was the terminology we use. We've changed it to photobiomodulation now to encompass both kinds, because almost all professionals now recognize led and laser as a good way to deliver light different. It could potentially be different. And I don't think we entirely know what the difference is to the body of coherent versus non coherent light. There are, there are potential differences. The research is not there to say, you know how we should apply those different light sources as yet, not that I've read,

 

Dr. Ayla Wolf  38:42

yeah, well, and I'm assuming the sun is not coherent.

 

Sarah Turner  38:47

No, the sun's not laser beaming us, yeah, and

 

Dr. Ayla Wolf  38:52

we're still getting benefit from the sunlight.

 

Sarah Turner  38:56

That's right, yeah, for sure, yeah, yeah, yes.

 

Dr. Ayla Wolf  38:59

The sun is not the death ray. Yep.

 

Sarah Turner  39:03

Yeah, exactly, if you want, you know, we want to mimic nature as much as we can. Well, certainly I do in these technologies. Because I think, you know, really, nature, Nature Cure is, is the best medicine as much as we can stick to it we have, you know, but we just have to utilize what we can in this modern society. You know, we can't go back to that, so we just need to kind of have that in mind. How can we be more like nature, but then bring this technology into something we can use in our modern lives? So, yeah, anything that mimics a natural process, to me has got to be better.

 

Dr. Ayla Wolf  39:36

Yeah, yeah. I love it. Excellent. Well, where can people find your device, your podcast, all the things that you're up to these days.

 

Sarah Turner  39:45

Yeah, so it's Cerethrive, it's C E R A, like the brain, like cerebellum, cerebral CERAthrive.com, and then all the socials are the same, and people can get to me through any of these channels. I do answer all, all. Of the questions and socials myself, or it's Sarah with an h, Sarah@cerethrive.com if people want to get me directly. And rebel scientist is the podcast name. So that's a bi weekly podcast we also put out on, actually, on the Sarah Thrive page on Amazon, on Spreaker, on Apple. However, people find their pods.

 

Dr. Ayla Wolf  40:21

yeah, yeah, excellent. And I know that podcast another great resource for people.

 

Sarah Turner  40:26

yeah, we try and talk about things. I kind of always try and bring it into a light slant. It doesn't always work, but, you know, things like stem cells. You know, stem cell migration and proliferation is influenced by light, you know. So this is an interesting thing. Diet. You know, we eat a lot of of foods that actually resonate with light. Our foods contain bio photons we're emitting like, you know, all of these things are related. So it's just my aim is to try and get people as excited about light as I am, really, yeah,

 

Dr. Ayla Wolf  40:55

and now, isn't there some research too to say that we have photoreceptors in more places in our brain or our body than just our eyeballs.

 

Sarah Turner  41:05

Oh, we're covered in photoreceptors, really. If you think about our biology, anything that kind of has that ring structure, which is almost all organic molecules in our body will vibrate to some extent, with water, with light and water, which makes up most of our bodies, 70% of our bodies and our brains, also is a big light receiver. Anything in that long wavelength our bodies are. The water in our bodies also respond to that light. So we are really literally vibrating with light all the time. You know, our mitochondria vibrating our bacteria the water. You know, almost everything, the receivers in our eyes are just one very small part of it. You know that they're very specialist receptors that help us know the time of day, but it's just one tiny part of our body that's oscillating with light. Actually, you know, almost our whole bodies are in tune with our light environment.

 

Dr. Ayla Wolf  42:01

Yeah, amazing. Yep, so much they'll need to learn and understand about how our bodies operate, right?

 

Sarah Turner  42:11

Yes, that's right. I think it's yeah, we're continually evolving, and as we get more sophisticated in the tech, you know, really, we've only just had these, like photo multipliers, where we can look at light that's coming off the body. You know, really, we're only at a stage now where we can assess that in any real term. You know, again, it's it's amazing. We're emitting light. And you know, what is that doing? And you know, is that communication? We really don't know yet. So there is a lot more to discover.

 

Dr. Ayla Wolf  42:37

Yeah, my mentor, Dr Carrick, had published a study where he was using an infrared ceramic blanket and testing wound healing on mice, and kind of like a diabetic wound wound healing model. And so that's also what they were finding, was that when you use the far infrared, that it was actually causing the stem cells to adhere to the the area that actually needed the healing. So I do find that research really interesting, this concept that you can use photobiomodulation to actually encourage stem cells to be attracted to the area that needs to heal.

 

Sarah Turner  43:16

Yeah, yeah. It's just amazing all the different things that light is doing in our bodies, for sure. And, yeah, there are some amazing technologies and things out there. Like I say, I do think it is a science that's kind of almost coming into its time now, as we start to get more sophisticated ways to measure it,

 

Dr. Ayla Wolf  43:34

yeah, well, thank you for creating a device that people can trust to actually be helpful, beneficial on the body, the mitochondria, the gut, brain axis. I love it. So I'll put all of that information into the show notes. And is there anything else that you have going on, or any other places you would like to direct people

 

Sarah Turner  43:56

to? I do do a bi weekly webinar. So I would invite anybody who wants to attend that is free to attend, and we do a different topic every two weeks, so more than happy for people to jump on that anytime.

 

Dr. Ayla Wolf  44:10

Also amazing, cool. I'll add that in the show notes as well. Thank you so much for coming on the show and sharing all of your background, your hard work and all the research and an understanding on on what could be a kind of a confusing and complex topic.

 

Sarah Turner  44:26

Thank you. Yes. Thank you so much. It was just such a pleasure to talk to you really.

 

Dr. Ayla Wolf  44:35

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